Concepts 2006.08 Talk

From Architect HSIEH and Atelier-3

2006.08
謝英俊雜談
A miscellaneous talk with Hsieh

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<<DOMUS中國78位建築師訪談稿 未經同意不得轉載>>

<<DOMUS 'The manuscript of interviewing 78 architects in China'. Don't copy without agreement>>

• Q1.协力造屋的建造方式是怎樣緣起的？全世界大工业生产一統天下，您为什么要采取这种方式？

How was the method for collaborative construction conceived? In this global atmosphere of industrialized mass production, why did you take on this method?

協力造屋是傳統，只是在現代化過程中漸漸流失了。我抱持可持續發展的理念，參與台灣921地震災區原住民社區重建和中國社會主義新農村建設，很自然地會與這種優良的傳統重新結合。

大工業生產在環境危機的夢魘下，都不知如何自處，如何能期盼它在社會經濟文化相對弱勢、環境議題敏感的農村地區解決問題？

Collaborative construction is an ancient tradition, which has become lost in the process of modernization. I participated in the reconstruction of indigenous communities after the 921 earthquake in Taiwan and the development of new socialist farming villages in China with the ideal of sustainability in mind, so naturally re-integrated this excellent tradition in the methods I used.

Industrialized mass production is losing ground under the nightmare of environmental crisis, how can we expect it to solve problems in the social, economical, and culturally disadvantaged farming village areas which face sensitive environmental issues?

• Q2.建筑可持續的概念具体在项目中如何實現？

How is the concept of sustainable architecture concretely realized?

可持續建築不只談環境議題如綠建築、節能等的技術問題，而必須涵蓋更寬廣的經濟、社會文化等議題。

在環境議題上，我們強調綠建築須採用適用技術與生活化；在經濟議題上，強調建立社區自主（非依賴性）的營建體系，利用富餘勞動力和就地取材，降低對主流營建市場以及對貨幣的依賴，同時簡化生產設備以減少資本投入；在社會文化議題上，以合作社為組織機制，『工』為勞務互換單位，尊重每一個人的工作權、生存權，透過協力互助與集體勞動，凝聚社區意識、建立社區主體意識，並保持文化的多樣性。

要達成以上目標，必須透過以下幾項技術作為：

1. 簡化構法——讓非專業者接能參與勞作；
2. 開放建築——構造、空間配置上區分變與不變原則，以適應多樣性需求。

Sustainable architecture should not just discuss technical problems in the environmental issue such as green architecture and energy conservation, but include a wider range of subjects such as the economical and social cultural issues.

On the environmental level, we insist on using generally available and suitable techniques for green architecture; on the economical level, we emphasis on a community based, self-sufficient construction system, utilizing surplus labor and local materials to reduce dependency on currency and the mainstream construction market, at the same time simplifying the facilities for production in order to cut down capital investment; on the social cultural level, with the system of cooperative organization, and “work” as a module of labor exchange, we respect the working and living rights of all persons, and aim to increase community coherence and consciousness, conserve the diversity of culture through the act of mutual help and collective labor.

To achieve the above goals, the following technical methods are employed

1. Simplified construction methods - for the non-professional to take part in the labor process
2. Open building – a principle for the changeable and unchangeable in construction and spatial layout to adapt to diverse needs

• Q3.請解釋您的开放建筑的概念和开放式构造系统？

Please explain your concepts of open building and its construction system?

當面對百戶、千戶、萬戶不同需求農民家屋設計時，建築師能為、應為者何事？不可能一對一地量身訂做，自然得找尋一體通用的規則，以盡量適應不同的需求，包含空間、構法、用料…等，近似的說法是設計建築的「原型」、「通用類型」，以建構的觀點就是開放性的構法。

在實際操作上，除了前述要建構「原型」外，首要的是將構法簡化，讓非專業建築工都能參與施作，或理解構造原理，而能靈活調整。

「開放建築」隱藏了對內在秩序的掌握與彈性發展兩個面向。建築師要掌握的是前者，後者是由使用者來發揮；有別於以建築師為主體的思維，使用者或營建者也參與創作，由這兩股力量來呈現「規制性」與「多樣性」，也就是類似傳統民居的狀態，在哲學思想上則近似哈貝瑪斯的「互為主體性」。

What should and can an architect do when faced with hundreds of thousands of different needs for farmers’ housing designs? We cannot custom-make every single house, so naturally need to find a kind of rule for all purposes, including space, construction techniques and materials, to try and adapt to diverse needs. An approximate definition is to design the “prototype” of a building, which from the constructional point of view is an “open” construction method.

In actual practice, apart from constructing the “prototype”, the most important thing is to simplify the methods of building so that non-professional workers and take part and also understand the technical principles, and adjust flexibly.

“Open building” consists of two sides, the command of inner order and flexible development. The architect seeks to master the former, and let the user elaborate on the latter. Different from the thinking of architect as subject, the users or constructors participate in the creative process, and the two sides together present “order” and “diversity”. This is close to the state of traditional settlements, and in philosophical thinking close to what Habermas calls “intersubjectivity”.

• Q4.在大陸的實驗/實踐是怎樣開始的？有什麽困難和挑戰？

How did the experiment/practice start in China? What were the difficulties and challenges?

2004年春，由於理念相近，半頓飯功夫，就與三農問題專家溫鐵軍教授達成協議，參與他在河北省定州翟城村開辦的晏陽初鄉村建設學院，踏進中國農村參與新農村建設運動。

由於1999年台灣大地震以後，參與台灣原住民部落社區重建，累積了一些經驗，而中國農村面對的問題是：為市場經濟弱勢的一方、環境保護與經濟發展存有矛盾、可持續議題突出…等，二者有雷同之處。

中國農村甫進入市場經濟，許多優良傳統還保存，例如社區集體意識、相對獨立的經濟體系、農民具積極性與自主意識，因此推動過程超出想像的順利。尤其是合作社、合作建房、換工互助、用草土竹木為建材的健康環保構法…等，在這裡可以被接納。唯一讓民眾無法抗拒的是盲目和非理性的「流行」；但又有多少地方、多少人能抗拒它呢？

In the spring of 2004, because we had similar ideologies, I came to agreement with Professor WEN Tiejun, who is an expert on agricultural economics and rural development, and joined him at the James Yen Rural Reconstruction Institute in Hebei, to work on the new farming village reconstruction movement in China.

As I had accumulated some experience in the reconstruction of Taiwanese indigenous communities since the earthquake in 1999, I found similarities between the former and farming villages in China, namely: disadvantaged in the economic market, contradictions between environmental protection and economical development, issues of sustainability etc.

Farming villages in China are quite new to the economic market, so many valuable traditions are still intact, for example, community conscious, relatively independent economic system, an active attitude and autonomous conscious of local residents, so the impetus of our methods was received with unimagined smoothness, especially the concepts of cooperatives, building solidarity, mutual exchange of labor, and using green materials such as grass, mud, bamboo, wood…all of these ideas are accepted here. The only problem is the residents’ irresistible urge to blindly follow irrational “trends”, yet how many people and places do can resist?

• Q5.現行的政策對您的實踐是否有支持作用？您的實踐方式是否有可能規模化推廣？

Do the current policies help you in practice? Can your methods become widely accepted?

在我們強調自主營建協力互助減少對貨幣的依賴、激發農民的創造力和生產力時，似乎讓社會、市場與政府置身事外，相對的如果政府能順著這脈絡，提供一分的支援會得到十分的成效，例如對建房合作社提供信用擔保或貸款利息補貼，就能啟動槓桿作用，讓有勞動意願和有勞動能力的人，沒錢也能建房，可以更有效的調動農村富餘勞動力投入可持續的新農村建設運動，也由於這種融資建房模式，讓農民住房成為銀行可評估的資本，可以活絡農村資金的回流與靈活運用，只要這關節打通，量化的生產自然能產生；技術關卡可因需求引領人才的投入而得到解決。

It seems like when we emphasis on autonomous construction and mutual help to reduce dependency on the currency and stimulate the farmers’ creativity and productivity, the society, market and government are left out of the whole affair; on the other hand, if the government can follow along this context to provide aid, a small amount of support can result in huge outcomes. For example, if the government can provide credit assurance or loan interest subsidy for the building cooperative, it can become leverage for labor aspiring people to build a house without money at hand, as well as to mobilize surplus labor in farming villages more efficiently to feed into the sustainable reconstruction movement of new farming villages. This model of building finance also lets farmer housing become an appraisable capital, which will vitalize the counterflow and flexible use of village finance. As soon as this crucial factor is established, mass production can naturally occur, and technical breakthrough be achieved through the input of talent.

• Q6.2006年威尼斯建築雙年展，您的參展作品概念是什麽？

What is the concept of your work at the 2006 Venice Biennale?

這次參展名為”社區可持續建築的實踐——威尼斯對話”重點呈現項目是台灣人數最少的原住民族”邵族”地震後的社區重建，和河南蘭考賀村合作社的農村可持續家屋與社區重建，透過網絡資料庫的建立和視訊對答，傳達觀念、呈現工作成果，對答主題提示如下：

• 可持續建築包括了社會文化、經濟、與環境三個主軸，可有實際執行的案例？
• 9億農民如何參與可持續家屋與社區重建？他們的一舉一動對地球環境的影響，可不是南太平洋一隻蝴蝶拍動翅膀。
• 現代建築的理論與實踐，為何進不了這個領域？
• 河南蘭考賀村合作社，如何進行社會主義新農村建設？
• 全球化過程中，社區自主的生產與生活體系是怎麼回事？
• 台灣邵族如何透過協力自建社區，強化族群的意識，與主流社會對抗，讓傳統文化得以保存？
• 面對廣大農民群眾的建房需求：開放系統的嘗試。
• 如何思考「美學」？
• 多樣化的根源是什麼？以哈貝瑪斯（Habermas）「互為主體性」重新思考建築師的定位與設計作為。

The exhibition is entitled “Sustainable Construction in Community: Dialogue in Venice” and the main display will feature the community reconstruction of the Thao tribe, the least populated indigenous tribe in Taiwan, and the sustainable housing and community reconstruction of farming villages with the Henan Lankaoher Cooperative society. Through the internet data archives and video conference Q&A, we aim to communicate our concepts and present the results of our work. The Q&A subjects are as follows:

• "Sustainable Construction" is constituted societally, economically and environmentally. Are there established of examples "Sustainable Construction"?
• How can the 900 million farmers in China participate in the "Sustainable Construction"? The impact from this population can never be underestimated.
• Why can’t modern architectural theory and practice enter this domain?
• How does the architectural cooperative society of the Lan-kao Her Village in He-nan Province, China proceed its rural development under the principles of socialism?
• What does the production and living system of community autonomy mean under the trend of globalization?
• How does the Thao tribe in Taiwan enhance their community consciousness and resist the absorption of the mainstream through construction of their own community in order to preserve their heritage?
• How do architects face the housing issues of the large population of farmers in China: trying for a more open construction system?
• What will be the new aesthetics under such principles?
• What are the fundamentals of pluralism? - Based on the "inter-subjectivity" proposed by Eugene Habermas, finding a new direction for architects.

• Q7.您對目前的工作狀態有什麽自我評價。

What is your self assessment of the state of work you are doing now.

可持續建築的理念與作為挑戰現代文明的一切，這是全新的時代，面對這座高不見頂的大山，全人類都站在同一個水平上，沒有高低優劣，只有踏實地札下去，才能往上爬。

The ideal of sustainable architecture and all that challenge modern civilization, it’s a whole new era we are in, and faced with this mountain with no pinnacle in sight, all humans stand on the same grounds, and only by stedfast down-rooting can we climb upwards.